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Elder Whisper vs. Li Markuth
Elder Whisper might be able to hide and run, if the terms of the battle allow such a thing. But Li Markuth very well might be able to catch him, and if he can, then Li Markuth wins it. He's a level above Whisper.
Wait, so Elder Whisper is a level above Underlord?!! That is CRAZY AWESOME!
No no, Whisper isn't THAT strong. He's several levels under Li Markuth, it's just that Markuth would be relying solely on the brute force of his spiritual senses to find Whisper, whereas Whisper has hundreds of years of experience as an illusionist for running and hiding.He is, however, by far the strongest active being in Sacred Valley.
Eithan vs. Elder Whisper
Eithan does win.
Was elder whisper a witness to the end of the first blackflame empire
Possibly.
Are Elder Whisper the ancestor of all the little sacred beast foxes in the sacred valley?
Yes
Elder Whisper vs. Blackflame Turtle
There is no defense against raw Turtle Power.
This is my favourite blog since 'Ancestors of Cradle'!! Fun reading!!!
How aboutGrom (The Archmage of Menzoberanzan) vs Elder Whisper
Ryu Hayabusa (from Ninja Gaiden 2) vs Yerin?
Goku (ignoring anything past the Main Buu Saga) vs Northstrider?
Is there anyone in the Cradle world (not the universe itself but the planet) that can take one Majin-Buu or Majin-Vegeta?
Evangeline Kitty McDowell (from UQ Holder) vs Luminous Queen Sha Maria?
Touta Konoe (UQ Holder) vs Yerin
Esdeath (Akame ga kill) vs Li Markuth
More to come later =(^-^)=
This thread has gotten so long! It's been awesome, but now I'm having trouble keeping track of it all!
1.) Grom vs. Elder Whisper
I'd like to give it to Whisper because of the flexibility of madra vs. Vancian magic, which relies on prepared and memorized spells and material components. That said, I'd think it would depend on where they fought. Elder Whisper relies on light aura, and Menzoberranzan is in the Underdark. There is some bioluminescence for decoration, but the dark elves primarily rely on infravision to see. No light aura, and Elder Whisper's powers are more limited. Plus, Grom can attack directly, which Elder Whisper essentially can't. Grom gets it.
2.) Ninja Gaiden 2 Ryu Hayabusa vs. Yerin
I have to say I didn't play 2; I played 1, and I played Dead or Alive, but not 2. So if the specifics of what I say are wrong, forgive me.
I'd think Yerin would get it because she's from a magic system with more magic. Everything she does is infused with madra--she's strengthened by madra, throwing blades of madra, using the power of an opponent's blades against them.
Ryu has powers of his own, as well as a great deal of training, but for the most part he's swinging regular steel weapons. Yerin beats him.
3.) SS3 Goku vs. Northstrider
This is roughly the level of power I'm looking at for Northstrider. When he powers up, the world shakes for miles around. That sort of thing.
(Not blowing up planets, but they could do that in the Saiyan Saga, so I'm just kind of pretending DBZ characters can't do that.)
I'd think Goku would win, because Northstrider can't teleport or use ki blasts (unless between now and my introduction of the character I decide to give him that ability). In a straight punch-out, they'd be comparable.
4.) Majin Buu or Majin Vegeta
Yes.
5.) Evangeline vs. Sha Miara
UQ Holder Evangeline rather than Negima Evangeline, huh? Not that in her particular case it matters much, that's just interesting.
Evangeline has to win because she's immortal and Sha Miara isn't. In terms of magical firepower, I'd give it to Sha Miara, but I don't know that Evangeline has ever gone 100% all-out. Still a similar level.
6.) Touta Konoe vs. Yerin
Same thing: Touta wins because he can't be killed. So he basically can't lose a death match.
I'm also not fully clear on what his powers are, but the White Light of Mars can presumably disperse Yerin's Striker and Ruler techniques (though not her Enforcer techniques, which I'd guess would work more similar to chi in the Negima universe). Even if you say that dying once disqualifies him, Touta probably wins.
7.) Esdeath vs. Li Markuth
Esdeath can freeze *time itself,* which is pretty OP, but I think Li Markuth still wins. He's superhuman and has access to a broader variety of techniques.
Simon vs. Elder Whisper
Yerin vs. Elder Whisper
Elder Whisper is a master of illusion. I think Yerin could break out of it but I dont know if Sacred Animals can advance like Trugold to Underlord. Ill say Whisper wins.
With Simon, he should be dead as he has no experience with illusions.
The Five-Tailed Fox gets it.
Sacred beasts CAN advance just like humans can, though of course their process is a little...weirder.
There is a power in Valinhall that can break illusions, but Simon doesn't have it yet, so he dies.
Is the first elder of the Wei clan simply a jade. Since the first time I read unsouled I've had this nagging suspicion that hes much stronger ? Could he possibly be an underlord cloaking his power ?
No, he’s Jade. He’s just very skilled.
Elder Whisper, on the other hand...
How far ahead did you plan this series, was Eithan always Ozriel? I appreciate how well everything seems planned out.
This is an interesting, this is the question, so, was Eithan always Ozriel? Yes, and even more yes, because it was before I even came up with Cradle. So, he really was, Eithan was the character, that kind of this whole thing was built around, and not really, not because of his journey. It's lindon's journey, but in terms of, uh the setting, was really designed around Eithan being Ozriel. So... Yeah, that whole thing, the whole universe doesn't work anymore if that's not true; but, I was still building it so I was like, well... If I need to change my mind in the future, I can so I was still being cagey about it, in case I got to a point where I need it to change direction, but I didn't. So then, and how far ahead did you plan the series? (Takes sip) That, way way way in advance; but everything else, there are monuments that I, theyre landmarks that I can, that I set up. So I'm headed to these things, and there are concepts that I'm, that I've embedded in, and planned for, it's there it's in the background, it's done; and there are themes that come and go throughout the whole series that I'm setting up. So a lot of people go back to Unsouled and they go 'Oh man, there are, all these bits of foreshadowing for later books', Yes and no, some of them are just absolutely, yes they're foreshadowing. Others are, they are themes that echo throughout the whole thing. Things that Elder Whisper, the first elder, or whatever, tell Lindon about the sacred arts, and certainly what Suriel says, they are themes that echo throughout the series. So, yes they do come back, later, because that's, those are the ideas that the whole series is wrestling with. So its less foreshadowing, more, yeah I have a consistent thematic element throughout the whole thing; and then the other thing is, I often go back to my previous books and I see what I've established, and I think about okay how would people take this, what are they going to expect? Then I use that to make my future plans. It's kind of a mix of planning way way way in advance and, planning each book out, and sort of improvising. So a lot of things I leave open to future me to figure out. So I leave these elements that I, I leave myself tools in the future that I can use to play with, and then I figure out what I'm going to do with them when I get there. So, that is kind of how I work. You, we talked about Eithan's plans earlier, that's kind of how in this case I'm doing things, I'm sort of setting things up and then figuring it out later; but I set pieces up so that I can figure out how I can use them later. That's kind of the idea. So one of the infamous examples of that going wrong, is in, Ghostwater, when everything in Lindon's pack is destroyed and you have this, scripting stones he got in book 2, yeah it's because I intended Lindon to have a whole subplot with him scripting, and then I realized that would take way took much page space and focus away from soulsmithing, so I did away with it, and then the scripting stones had no purpose, so I was like 'crap'. (Takes sip)
Elder Whisper vs. Asphodel Incarnation
This would be another one of those really interesting, sort of irritating fights where everyone is trying to figure out what is real and what's just an illusion.
Honestly, I think this probably comes down to chance. One of them falls into the other's trap first, and it's 50-50 who.
The cthaeh from the king killer chronicles vs the entire world of Cradle
*cthaeh is given 500 years to prepare and sets events in motion but cannot start violence until 490*Cradle does not know Cthaeh is there to kill them until it has been in world for 500 years*Abidan are not involved
Those are some harsh conditions.
The only advantage Cradle has at this point is that there ARE individuals capable of seeing and manipulating the future. I mean, Elder Whisper already demonstrated the capacity to catch glimpses of the future, and he's pretty low on the overall power scale.
This type of scenario is interesting enough that I was already considering it for the distant future, actually (not the cthaeh, obviously, but some other malicious oracle entity). But if I did, their objective wouldn't be to depopulate Cradle.
Because here's the problem: the cthaeh WOULD be detected before 500 years are up. Some of the people on the top end of the scale would go "Who's that messing with the future?" and go find it to blow it up.
And if it started depopulating Cradle, the Abidan WOULD get involved. I mean, heck, the Abidan are pretty spot-on about any foreign threat messing with Cradle's fate. There's a snake in the nursery; the adults aren't going to ignore it.
HOWEVER, given your conditions...
...it gets pretty interesting.
The first thing the cthaeh is going to realize is that it isn't the only fate-manipulating individual around, and that the others have much greater destructive power. So it's going to have multiple layers of misdirection around it: a proxy oracle to take the blame, a decoy tree, some way to mask its touch on fate, and it would probably limit itself to a very subtle, long-term influence to avoid getting caught.
Then it would make a list of these other precognitive threats and make sure that whatever it did destroyed them first. If it can be the only entity capable of manipulating fate, it wins.
The advantage there is that, while there are millions if not billions (population of Cradle is huge) of sacred artists in Cradle with the ability to see hints of fate, there are only a handful capable of manipulating it. And if the cthaeh can kill them, or even most of them, its chances of success increase significantly.
But it's still playing with fire, because while it is making its own preparations, the native oracles are laying their plans as well. Plus, due to the nature of Cradle's magic system, new threats to the cthaeh can pop up anytime, so it has to account for POTENTIAL precognitives as well.
I think it would probably, in order to mask its own influence and still have the most destructive impact possible, start leading psychotic and murderous individuals to sources of great power. It might even start its own cult around itself, dedicated to killing readers of fate. It would certainly provoke the Dreadgods, leading them to go on four separate destructive rampages, and probably wake as many of the other ancient threats as it could.
There are things buried in Cradle that can affect the global climate, swarms of monsters that multiply endlessly, weapons that detonate living beings directly, curses that make innocents into killers...
All that said, I have difficulty envisioning a scenario in which the cthaeh is able to FULLY destroy Cradle.
In the end, it can't act too directly or it risks discovery, and new threats to its existence can pop up any day. And it's an individual, while Cradle is a massive planet with trillions of people, each of whom are POTENTIALLY capable of growing to the degree that they can threaten the tree.
I think it could easily destroy all civilization and cause thousands of Paths to be forgotten, erasing hundreds of legacies and killing billions of sacred artists. It turns the whole planet into an inhospitable post-apocalyptic wasteland in which only the most hardy can eke out a living.
But eventually, someone is going to kill it.
However, that only works if you go with Kvothe's belief of the abilities of the Cthaeth. If you were to agree with Bast's opinions, Cradle has no chance as the Cthaeth will have already predicted all this and everything that may come of it, and all counters to its schemes, thus meaning that the Cradle inhabitants working to stop it are, in fact, furthering its goals.
Sure, except that it's up against similar beings, so assuming that they're equal is a stalemate.
"It predicted you'd predict it, so it was prepared for your prediction, but you predicted that prediction and prepared a prediction of your own..."
Stalemate.
Like a lot of these matchups, you have to assume a reasonably equal scale.
1) Can Remnants occur without a sacred beast, sacred plant or sacred artist being killed?2) Does Cradle have more than one language, because Lindon and Yerin could talk with everyone near the ruins despite the people coming from different places on Cradle.
1.) Sort of, yes! They're not called Remnants in that case, but rather "natural spirits."2.) Cradle does have more than one language. They can talk to everyone in the Ruins because they speak the same language; it's not really that far from Sacred Valley to the Desolate Wilds.Sure, SV is isolated, so they've developed some different linguistic quirks, but there are still a few ancient individuals around who came from the world outside the Valley (Elder Whisper is a good example). These few entities keep Sacred Valley speaking more or less properly.Lindon does have an accent, though. I just don't translate it into the story, because writing an accent is annoying.
Last week, we were discussing if Elder Whisper was a Highgold or a Truegold, so is he a truegold?
I cannot confirm that. That's a spoiler.
What level would Elder Whisker be outside of the Sacred Valley?
Outside of Sacred Valley, or in Sacred Valley without the "curse," he'd be considered a Truegold.
If I turned my Blackbelt into a Soulbound Vessel, what powers would I gain?
If Lindon and company each got to make a Soulbound Vessel, what would each of them go for?
Black belt: in order to make it a Vessel, you'd have to give it some inherent power source, such as from an Elder or a Kameira. That being the case, it would depend on what material you wove into the belt.
Lindon: a pair of glasses that enhances focus, concentration, and power while Reading.
Yerin: a sword.
Eithan: a colorful suit that overwhelms all who see him with awe.
Mercy: a watering can that grows healthy plant
Goku vs Elders and Emperor. If Goku loses, then Beerus comes in
Based on what we've seen from Dragon Ball Super recently, even the creators of the show have no idea what power levels mean. We have Super Saiyan Trunks fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, which makes NO sense. Plus Goku gets pricked by a poison needle during his fight with alt-universe Freeza, which seems to violate canon in like three different ways.
This effectively means that recent events have suggested that Goku isn't really THAT strong.
Anyway, disregarding recent events that retcon Goku's strength and using our own reasonable standard of his power level...
1.) Goku vs. the Emperor and the Elders
Let's assume, first of all, that Goku doesn't just blow up the planet and cause everyone to lose.
...although, now that I'm thinking about it, that would be the worst thing he could do. Without the existence of Intent-wielding humans, the Elders would be free of their confines, and they would escape into their true forms. At which point they would unmake Goku at a conceptual level. The Emperor would still die, but his team would win the battle.
However, assuming Goku doesn't destroy the planet, he would tear apart the Emperor and about half the Great Elders. Any of them that work physically: Nakothi, Othaghor, Kthanikahr. He'd blow up their minions, fly in, and tear them to pieces.
But against the more metaphysical Great Elders--Urg'naut, Tharlos, Ach'magut--I suspect he'd have his mind devoured or his soul ripped out or something. As far as I can tell, he has no ability to resist powers like that.
And I can't imagine Kelarac wouldn't be able to outwit Goku.
2.) Beerus vs. Elder Empire
It depends on how Beerus' powers as the God of Destruction work in a universe that isn't his own.
If he can still unmake entities the way that he unmade Zamasu, then he would certainly win. The Great Elders actually can't be unmade this way, so they would re-form in the void and attack some other, random world, but that's not enough to invalidate Beerus' victory.
However, if he's relying on sheer strength and not his authority as the Destroyer, then he has the same result as Goku. He might be able to resist one or two of the metaphysical Elders, because presumably gods have some kind of spiritual/mental fortitude, but all of them working together could probably defeat him.
Whis, on the other hand, likely just wins. I can't see the Elders beating him physically or metaphysically.
Woah. I thought you would say Goku would lose immediately.
How about Naruto. Him vs Emperor.
And vs physical Elders, not metaphysical.
Use Sage of Six Paths Naruto
I've seen nothing in the series to suggest that Naruto could ever compete on Goku's level, so I'd think Naruto loses to everybody.
Now, that's assuming he walks in and tries to fight Nakothi (or whoever) on his own. As part of a team, like for instance one of the Emperor's teams that actually went against the Great Elders, I think he'd be a huge asset. And a big threat to the Elders.
Naruto vs. the Emperor would be the closest fight. Naruto's powers are more physically threatening than the Emperor's, since he can use blasts of destruction and the Emperor can't. However, the Emperor's powers of Intent can also counter a lot of what Naruto's capable of doing--the Emperor would have superior elemental control to Naruto, for instance, and he could likely make Naruto's clothes shrivel up and start strangling him. He effectively controls the whole world around him.
So the incompatibility of powers makes this a little bit of an awkward matchup, but I'd PROBABLY give it slightly to Naruto. 51-49. The Emperor is smarter and older and wiser, but Naruto has many crazy powers in one body.
I re-read Unsouled and noticed that in case of complete system collapse a few worlds would still be protected including Asylum. I'm going on on the obvious and thinking the Elders are scary even to the Court of seven and could possibly play the same role as the Court does but for chaos.
Yes, that's why Asylum is a protected world. If they get out, they're scary.
The Abidan intended it to be a temporary holding cell to imprison the Elders until they had fully corrupted the world, at which point Ozriel could destroy it.
Which wouldn't kill the Elders, but would drive them back into the void. So it was really just keeping them off the streets for a while.
Then the Emperor came along, and humanity has prospered beyond what the Abidan ever expected. That tethers the world more strongly to the Way and strengthens the prison, weakening the Elders. So Asylum has held on much longer than anyone anticipated.
The Elders, by the way, don't want to be trapped there OR cast back into the void. They want to escape into other Iterations, which is exactly what the Abidan don't want.
Back in the day, the Elders could have depopulated humanity. They didn't; they kept just enough alive to make sure the Abidan wouldn't obliterate the place while the Elders looked for a way out.
1. So what the heck happened between valin and the queen cause from what i gathered from the short stories they used to be thick as thieves, kinda like simon and leah (is history gonna repeat itself ) 2. So at the risk of repeating this request, would love some info about the abidan court or at least the willverse or whatever u call it.3. What about the First Mistress of Mist cause as u said (or impied) she was running a guild in a time when humans were basically livestock/slaves.4. So i asked this before and u said to wait for Blackflame so i wont ask this point again.5. Were the elders trapped by the abidan or are they beneath their notice? 6. Would love a comparison system for power between different worlds.7. so much to ask but dont wanna be a bother or be the reason for causing a delay in blackflame so ill stop here ans any you can leave any which u want to keep for plot purpose
1.) The answer to this is pretty tightly related to why Valin hates Damasca in the first place.2.) I'm calling it the Willverse now. That's hilarious.3.) I don't know how much more I'm going to explore her, but yeah, she was running a Guild when humans were AT BEST servants. It would be an interesting time to write about.4.) Yes. Wait for Blackflame.5.) The Elders were trapped by the Abidan. In their current forms, they're beneath the notice of the Abidan, but if they escaped Asylum, it would be a different matter entirely.6.) It's hard to come up with a comparison, because comparing one magic system to another is like comparing apples to non-Euclidean geometry.7.) Hahaha thanks! I have spent a long time on this thread, thanks to the site bug that has prevented me from responding to anything over the last few days. I do need to get back to work.
so 2 last question 1. are Territories the surviving fragments/parts of the Worlds(main planets in Willverse) that were destroyed by the Corruption or by the abidan.(as punishment or cause they got corrupted)2. why were the ELDERS trapped on asylum was it a matter of opportunity(all were present there) or were the people of asylum punised for some purposeor was there a significant power/structure on asylum that was supposed to keep the ELDERS in check but something went wrong.(like were the people advanced enough to subdue the ELDERS or was there a prison )
1.) They're fragments of worlds that died naturally, uncorrupted.2.) SPOILERS!
What is a piece of cut content that you fully fleshed out, but never found a good spot to put in the books? Besides jade cycling techniques, that is.
Well, I shared a lot of that before, I guess, Bloodline I think. I shared some of the things I had thought about there. There's a lot of paths that I made. I think one thing - this is funny, but I made a full character sheet for Charity, Akura Charity. So the owls thing, that's a real technique. I know all the techniques in The Book of the Silver Heart. I have a character sheet for Pride too somewhere, but, you know. It's Pride. Charity though, I have names for her weapons and artifacts. I have some elaborate stuff, and we just never got into it. Maybe I'll shove it into the nest book. She still has a role in the series of course. So maybe I'll elaborate on that. So that's one thing. I have character sheets for quite a number of people, but Charity is one that I was looking through my notes the other day, and I was like, huh. I fleshed out her path. And I never really did a whole lot with it.
So, anything else... Another piece of cut content... Oh, there is a lot of setting stuff. A lot of Serpent's Grave. Even in Elder Empire. I actually built the Gray Island, for the Consultant Headquarters in Elder Empire, I built that in Minecraft so I would have a map for it. I just went into creator mode in Minecraft and built the whole thing. Built the docks, built the different traps, and the underground chamber, and all that stuff. I ended up losing that map because I transitioned computers and didn't back it up. So I was really salty about that. So that's another thing; there's a few setting things that I fleshed out then didn't get to include, because of course I, instead f lingering on settings, blow past them at the speed of light. So there's stuff with Blackflame City and stuff with Serpent's Grave that I came up with, then just didn't use. I do that a lot with characters and settings; come up with details for them that are probably never going to come up. There's a few sages that I think are super cool that are probably never going to come up. Just a few paths they get to use that are (aren't?) cool. There's also some that I initially had that overlap with another character or they just aren't that important. So there was one guy that was on a sun path, and he was conjuring... It's kind of like Heaven's Glory but taken to the utmost extreme, because he's a sage. So yeah, a few things like that.
One of the first things I did in Blackflame actually, was I went through and defined all the monarchs, and the most prominent heralds and sages and stuff, because I wanted to know who the most powerful figures in the world are. I did this in Elder Empire too; I went and elaborated on the regents and guild heads in one document in order to define the setting and the magic system. That's one thing I really enjoy doing, and I recommend anyone do it if you are trying to write a progression fantasy sort of setting where people scale in power, is if you define the upper end of the system really quick, even to yourself, it can help you answer questions you didn't even know you had. Somebody asked me earlier, how do you get past being stuck, and the answer I am sorry to say, is really just write nonsense. Write the best scene you can think of. Well, I don't know what to write. To bad, keep writing. Write as though someone is holding a gun to your head so words keep coming out of your fingers. So that's how you do it. Another answer that I'll elaborate on is you want to know more about your story. One of the ways to do that is to answer questions to yourself. Defining powerful people in your magic system is another way to answer questions you didn't even know you had.
So, one of the first things I did for Elder Empire, which I didn't do this for Cradle, mainly because I just went through and I had a file that's literally called powerful people of Cradle, and I just went through and outlined all the monarchs and their relationships to one another, and their factions, and what continent their on, their most powerful and loyal sages and heralds, all that kind of thing. So, I went through and did all that around Blackflame, when I was really trying to define the setting, and of course I had done a little bit of that already, because 3 of the monarchs show up in Unsouled, so clearly I had done some of that already, but I finished the documentation there. And in Elder Empire, I wrote a scene with the Emperor and the first generation Champions, uniting the world. And of course at least of those first generation Champions became a regent. And I didn't know anything about Estyr Six at the time; I just thought about a woman with long hair, and a black coat, and three lizard skulls that she was levitating around her with her powers that I thought was really cool, and because of that image, I fleshed her out into one of the major people in the setting. And that ended up helping me fill in history of the setting that I didn't know I needed, and the dominoes sort of fell, and that inspired me and gave me some gaps to fill in later.
