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Mike

If the world is so large.... does gravity not work the same way in this universe?

Daniel

The planet may be hollow or it may be made of less dense matter or the gravitational constant could be significantly lower in the universe or yeah it could be magic. Though if humans exist it must have some relation to the basic model or they wouldn't be human.

Will Wight

Daniel's right.Part of the answer is "magic," and part of it is how this world developed differently because of magic.

a few moments later....

Two users now argue at length about the subject of the physics of such a large world.... we skip to Will's next comment.

Will Wight

Since it looks like this has become a real discussion, I'll give a real answer!

I made Cradle very big. Why? A few reasons.

First, a lot of wuxia and xianxia stories do it so they can scale up to ridiculous numbers. Where first the character thinks a huge city has ten thousand people, later a huge city has ten BILLION people.

Also, they're so special they're not just one in a million, they're one in a TRILLION! And they go from crossing a thousand miles in a single step to a hundred thousand miles!

So in part, it's an homage to the genre.

In part, it's so that I can set other stories in the same world and they've never even heard of the people, places, or events in Lindon's story.

And inpart it's to illustrate that this isn't Earth. The Iterations are Narnia-style "worlds," not different planets, but since it's a whole new universe each time, they are ALSO different planets.

I wanted a way to show that without putting a second moon in the sky, so "greater surface area and population" it is.

***

As for the mechanics of it: I said "Magic" earlier, but that basically boils down to "This is how vital aura works."

Vital aura is the power of the world that sacred artists harvest and use to strengthen their madra. It's the spirit of the world, basically. It makes what would otherwise be an uninhabitable planet, habitable.

The planet IS less dense than earth, but because of its huge volume, it's more massive. Gravity is much greater. Humans are supported by madra from birth in part because otherwise they wouldn't be able to adapt to the gravity.

You have other problems too: does this less-dense core spin fast enough to create a magnetosphere? Wouldn't continents bigger than Earth's just be massive deserts everywhere except immediately along the coast? Wouldn't the surface of such a planet be wracked by storms?

Vital aura!

I'll get into it later in the books, but for me building this world, aura served a couple of functions. First, it allows people to adapt to what would otherwise be very harsh natural conditions (Sacred Valley and the immediate surrounding areas have, so far, been very mild. Conditions will accelerate as we get deeper into Cradle). Second, vital aura is generated by natural forces AND it changes natural forces.

I'll continue showing how it works in future books, but the bottom line is that aura allows me to have thriving ecosystems where everything is fire-aspect: trees with burning fruit pollinated by insects with wings of flame, and so on and so forth. Same in the depths of the ocean and on the tops of clouds.

It's magic. But it DOES work consistently according to a set of rules, and it DOES interact with physics.

However, I'm not as attached to real-world physics as Brandon Sanderson is. He enjoys figuring out the physical implications of every nuance in his magic systems. I do not enjoy that, so I will not be doing it.

If there's a gap between real physics and magic, I'll be filling in that gap with magic. Not physics. Just a personal preference.

Jeremiah

You may not enjoy figuring out how magic interacts with and is subject to physics, but I would feel sure you wouold enjoy the fact that Sanderson has done so.

Will Wight

Jeremiah, what I like and appreciate is all the thought and planning that Sanderson puts into developing his magic system, and how clear the rules usually are. AND what an impact they always have on the surrounding society.That's cool, and I know from experience that it's very hard to do.But as for him figuring out all the details of how his magic interacts with physics...no, I don't really care.Harry Potter magic doesn't interact with physics, and yet each individual book in the series has a very tight magic system (the series as a WHOLE doesn't, because some magic introduced in a later book could have solved problems in an earlier book, but each book on its own is very consistent).As long as the rules and abilities are clear to me, great! I don't care if they're consistent with known physics or not. Where does the extra mass go when Professor McGonnagall turns into a cat? Magic.

April

I may be weird, but yes, things like that bug me. Less in fantasy as the author can say "because magic" and it works (though some take that to an extreme, which usually is enough to turn me off from a book) but in sci-fi that is a definite deal-breaker)

Will Wight

Apparently that's a pretty common view, April, and that's fine!

I'm just saying that MY tolerance for physics-defying shenanigans is pretty high, as long as it's consistent within the work. If a character survives getting hit by a tactical missile and then is threatened by a knife, Will is not happy.

But if we're getting into the realm of "Dragons could never grow that large because their bones couldn't support their own body weight," or "A conjuration spell could never work because it adds mass to the universe," then I don't care.

It's fantasy. Magic > Physics.

Honorless

Is an Iteration's magic system usable outside of the planet but still within the Iteration?

Will Wight

Yes. If you're outside the main planet you're still inside the-anywhere in the reality the magic system is usable. Unless it's resource based, so if there was something like Brandon Sanderson's allomancy, that would be potentially restricted to that planet because it could be that resource is only found on that planet, right? Other than that, yeah, the metaphysics are the same anywhere within the Iteration. And that is, by the way, why it is a dimension and not just a planet. Otherwise I would have just done planets.

Mike

If the world is so large.... does gravity not work the same way in this universe?

Will Wight

Part of the answer is "magic," and part of it is how this world developed differently because of magic.I made Cradle very big. Why? A few reasons.First, a lot of wuxia and xianxia stories do it so they can scale up to ridiculous numbers. Where first the character thinks a huge city has ten thousand people, later a huge city has ten BILLION people.Also, they're so special they're not just one in a million, they're one in a TRILLION! And they go from crossing a thousand miles in a single step to a hundred thousand miles!

So in part, it's an homage to the genre.In part, it's so that I can set other stories in the same world and they've never even heard of the people, places, or events in Lindon's story.And in part it's to illustrate that this isn't Earth. The Iterations are Narnia-style "worlds," not different planets, but since it's a whole new universe each time, they are ALSO different planets. I wanted a way to show that without putting a second moon in the sky, so "greater surface area and population" it is.

***As for the mechanics of it: I said "Magic" earlier, but that basically boils down to "This is how vital aura works."Vital aura is the power of the world that sacred artists harvest and use to strengthen their madra. It's the spirit of the world, basically. It makes what would otherwise be an uninhabitable planet, habitable.The planet IS less dense than earth, but because of its huge volume, it's more massive. Gravity is much greater. Humans are supported by madra from birth in part because otherwise they wouldn't be able to adapt to the gravity.You have other problems too: does this less-dense core spin fast enough to create a magnetosphere? Wouldn't continents bigger than Earth's just be massive deserts everywhere except immediately along the coast? Wouldn't the surface of such a planet be wracked by storms? Vital aura!

I'll get into it later in the books, but for me building this world, aura served a couple of functions. First, it allows people to adapt to what would otherwise be very harsh natural conditions (Sacred Valley and the immediate surrounding areas have, so far, been very mild. Conditions will accelerate as we get deeper into Cradle). Second, vital aura is generated by natural forces AND it changes natural forces.

I'll continue showing how it works in future books, but the bottom line is that aura allows me to have thriving ecosystems where everything is fire-aspect: trees with burning fruit pollinated by insects with wings of flame, and so on and so forth. Same in the depths of the ocean and on the tops of clouds.

It's magic. But it DOES work consistently according to a set of rules, and it DOES interact with physics.However, I'm not as attached to real-world physics as Brandon Sanderson is. He enjoys figuring out the physical implications of every nuance in his magic systems. I do not enjoy that, so I will not be doing it.If there's a gap between real physics and magic, I'll be filling in that gap with magic. Not physics. Just a personal preference.

Will Wight

It has many times more surface area than Earth.Also, as B pointed out, we haven't seen any REALLY civilized places yet. We'll see a city in Blackflame, but even that will be a relatively small, isolated city.Thanks to vital aura and the power of madra, there are lots of inhabited places in Cradle that would be uninhabitable on Earth. For instance, there are cities on the bottom of the ocean. And on the surface of the ocean. And on the clouds.

Questioner

Do Iterations typically only have 1 habitable planet tying them to the Way or are there multiple in the Iterations' corner of their universe?

Will Wight

Yes. Typically, Iterations only have one habitable planet. No, that's not true. One inhabited planet. So that is typically the case. But that doesn't mean they only have one habitable planet and it doesn't mean that none of them have multiple inhabited planets. So there are some, definitely. 

Daniel

So it seems to me that the other multiversal powers are actually doing more to stabalise iterations just by allowing people to cross from one too the other and share tech because that would push population higher and allow them to stabalise iterations by bringing in more people.

Will Wight

Not quite! I hope to get into the mechanics of this in a Suriel storyline at some point, but basically unsupervised inter-world interaction has consequences that spill over into other worlds. THOSE Iterations might be better off, but they're shifting consequences onto other worlds.

Great for you, bad for the neighbors.

However, that's not to say that the Abidan have it all figured out. There is a reason they do what they do, but they can still make mistakes. One of the reasons Ozriel left is that he couldn't stand their policies; there's a lot of gray area between "not interfering with a world at all" and "controlling every aspect of its development."

If you'll recall, when Suriel shows up to Cradle, she considers saving some random people from harm, despite the non-interference rules. She could potentially have done that by descending and then using no more powers than an ordinary resident of the world.

By acting within the rules of the world, she's not interfering with Fate too much and not violating the Pact.

She could NOT have waved her hand and cured cancer over the whole planet.

Ozriel's argument is that they should be saving as many people as they can, as their power allows, even to the point of weakening the restrictions of the Eledari Pact. There are many worlds that he wouldn't have had to reap if the Pact would have allowed him to end a war, or destroy a particular demon, or eradicate a plague.

...boy, I've said too much. Quiet, Will.

Daniel

Hmmmmm. That's quite intriguing will. Seems like just an exchange of tech could easily exponentially increase the populations of various iterations and stabilize them without to many people going back and forth. Unless that destabilizing effect is based of something more obtuse than that.

Will Wight

A limited version of that is something that Ozriel might argue for. If there's a plague that's about to wipe out an entire planet and someone in another dimension has figured out a cure, why shouldn't we give them the cure? No magic powers necessary--we're giving them something they COULD have figured out on their own, but didn't. The Iteration gets to live at least a few thousand more years instead of getting Reaped.

Diego

Hey Will I don't quiet understand a part of this deviating from fate business. (I hope u don't take it the wrong way) I mean u mentioned that new iterations are formed from fragments drifting in the eternal nothingness or whatever.

Okay now these iterations are devoid of human life at first. (So their original fate is to actually devolve into chaos) 

Then the Abidan sort of place humans in them sort of like pilgrims to that iteration, isn't that in and of itself a deviation of fate? Not only for the world, but for those people whom were taken there as well? (I imagine they have to terraform the planet first to be suitable as well)

The only way i see it being part of Fate is if the "Way" kinna speaks to the Abidan of whom to take and from where. Again i hope u don't take it the wrong way or if u have another explanation ready. :D

Will Wight

vWell, they don't usually have to do much terraforming. The fragments tend to combine into a single, inhabitable, central planet, and then the Iteration spreads out from there into a full universe. Like a seed growing.

When a world is born in this manner, it's not yet tethered to the Way. And therefore not yet bound by Fate.

Only when the people show up does the world start to develop a connection to Fate at all.

Questioner

Out of curiosity, what rank would Simon be on Cradle? Both with his mask and without.And would he be practicing the Path of Valinhall?

Will Wight

This is a tricky question, because while I know what you mean, they're practicing different magic systems. Simon hasn't worked on his madra at all, so if he were plopped down in Cradle, they would see him as completely untrained.If we're talking parallels, yes his chains are like a Goldsign, and the dolls would be something like a Remnant.In terms of combat potential, he'd be at Underlord level physically with his mask on. In fact, he might have an advantage even at that tier (WITH the mask on, in a head-to-head confrontation).But that's purely a physical measurement. He'd have to ghost armor his way through their techniques, and hope that Nye essence makes him faster than their Enforcer techniques so they didn't break the armor, lock him in place, and cook him alive with fireballs or something before he gets close.Then again, let's say there's a fight between Simon and a sacred artist with similar powers. Path of the Steel Chains, or whatever. It focuses on Enforcer techniques and making the body stronger and faster, and uses giant weapons.Simon would have the advantage in a shorter battle, but if the sacred artist hangs on past the first few minutes, Simon is going to start running out of powers. The sacred artist isn't. Sure, he'll exhaust his madra eventually, but it's not on a timer like many of Simon's powers are. The mask extends that, but of course the mask itself has a time limit.And because of the Iron body, once Simon runs out of Nye essence OR steel, the sacred artist is going to dribble him like a basketball.

Eithan, for instance, would just dodge until Simon gave up, retreated, or had to take the mask off. A lot of an actual matchup would come down to information. Does the sacred artist know that Simon has a time limit, and does Simon know that he has to finish the fight quickly? Does Simon know what Path his opponent is on? Does he have Caela with him? How do the sacred artist's techniques interact with ghost armor?Then again, if some Abidan plucked Simon out of his world and dumped him into Cradle, Simon WOULD be able to learn sacred arts. In addition to his Traveler powers.He'd have to adjust to the planet itself, which is bigger and has higher gravity, and some of his Traveler abilities wouldn't work--notably, he probably wouldn't be able to cut open a Gate, so there goes the healing pool. But he'd still be able to call steel, essence, and so on, and he'd be able to use the mask and doll as long as he had them on him to begin with.Summoning Mithra would PROBABLY be possible, but it would certainly take longer.

To expand on the theory behind what I just said:Amalgam (the TG world) has a bunch of tiny fragmented worlds stuck to it like ticks on a dog. Those are the Territories. It's easy to cut Gates to and from these miniature worlds because they're close, and they're already somewhat connected to the main world. They're like the elemental planes in D&D, if that means anything to you.Cradle is NOT close. So anything Simon takes from his Territory will still work the same, but anything he has to call on the Territory for--like cutting a Gate, or summoning a weapon, or calling more power from a room (as Simon and Kai have both done before)--is going to either take much longer, reflecting the greater distance, or isn't going to work at all.This is metaphysical distance, by the way. These are worlds as in dimensions, not worlds as in planets. Although they are also planets. Suriel gets into detail about this in Blackflame, in a scene that I had originally written for Soulsmith and then cut.But there's a reserve of steel and of Nye essence inside his body, and those will work. Anything he carries with him and all his internal powers will function as normal, just like they do when he's inside someone else's Territory.

Dyslexic Satan

The cthaeh from the king killer chronicles vs the entire world of Cradle

*cthaeh is given 500 years to prepare and sets events in motion but cannot start violence until 490*Cradle does not know Cthaeh is there to kill them until it has been in world for 500 years*Abidan are not involved

Will

Those are some harsh conditions.

The only advantage Cradle has at this point is that there ARE individuals capable of seeing and manipulating the future. I mean, Elder Whisper already demonstrated the capacity to catch glimpses of the future, and he's pretty low on the overall power scale.

This type of scenario is interesting enough that I was already considering it for the distant future, actually (not the cthaeh, obviously, but some other malicious oracle entity). But if I did, their objective wouldn't be to depopulate Cradle.

Because here's the problem: the cthaeh WOULD be detected before 500 years are up. Some of the people on the top end of the scale would go "Who's that messing with the future?" and go find it to blow it up.

And if it started depopulating Cradle, the Abidan WOULD get involved. I mean, heck, the Abidan are pretty spot-on about any foreign threat messing with Cradle's fate. There's a snake in the nursery; the adults aren't going to ignore it.

HOWEVER, given your conditions...

...it gets pretty interesting.

The first thing the cthaeh is going to realize is that it isn't the only fate-manipulating individual around, and that the others have much greater destructive power. So it's going to have multiple layers of misdirection around it: a proxy oracle to take the blame, a decoy tree, some way to mask its touch on fate, and it would probably limit itself to a very subtle, long-term influence to avoid getting caught.

Then it would make a list of these other precognitive threats and make sure that whatever it did destroyed them first. If it can be the only entity capable of manipulating fate, it wins.

The advantage there is that, while there are millions if not billions (population of Cradle is huge) of sacred artists in Cradle with the ability to see hints of fate, there are only a handful capable of manipulating it. And if the cthaeh can kill them, or even most of them, its chances of success increase significantly.

But it's still playing with fire, because while it is making its own preparations, the native oracles are laying their plans as well. Plus, due to the nature of Cradle's magic system, new threats to the cthaeh can pop up anytime, so it has to account for POTENTIAL precognitives as well.

I think it would probably, in order to mask its own influence and still have the most destructive impact possible, start leading psychotic and murderous individuals to sources of great power. It might even start its own cult around itself, dedicated to killing readers of fate. It would certainly provoke the Dreadgods, leading them to go on four separate destructive rampages, and probably wake as many of the other ancient threats as it could.

There are things buried in Cradle that can affect the global climate, swarms of monsters that multiply endlessly, weapons that detonate living beings directly, curses that make innocents into killers...

All that said, I have difficulty envisioning a scenario in which the cthaeh is able to FULLY destroy Cradle.

In the end, it can't act too directly or it risks discovery, and new threats to its existence can pop up any day. And it's an individual, while Cradle is a massive planet with trillions of people, each of whom are POTENTIALLY capable of growing to the degree that they can threaten the tree.

I think it could easily destroy all civilization and cause thousands of Paths to be forgotten, erasing hundreds of legacies and killing billions of sacred artists. It turns the whole planet into an inhospitable post-apocalyptic wasteland in which only the most hardy can eke out a living.

But eventually, someone is going to kill it.

Jono

However, that only works if you go with Kvothe's belief of the abilities of the Cthaeth. If you were to agree with Bast's opinions, Cradle has no chance as the Cthaeth will have already predicted all this and everything that may come of it, and all counters to its schemes, thus meaning that the Cradle inhabitants working to stop it are, in fact, furthering its goals.

Will

Sure, except that it's up against similar beings, so assuming that they're equal is a stalemate.

"It predicted you'd predict it, so it was prepared for your prediction, but you predicted that prediction and prepared a prediction of your own..."

Stalemate.

Like a lot of these matchups, you have to assume a reasonably equal scale.

Chat

Is the new Subnautica worth buying?

Will Wight

Yes, absolutely. It's worth everyone buying. I sound like i'm joking, i'm not really. It's great, it's really good. It's a lot more story focused than the first Subnautica. This is a story game with a survival game in the background. You actually have a character and you interact with other characters. Your primary reason for being on the planet is a personal character goal, not "you're crash landed and you have to be on the planet." It's an interesting direction, I'm surprised they took that direction but i like it, i'm cool with it. Right now it's only like 2-3 hours of story content. I played through it, I loved it, and then you can wait for the developments to come out.

Lightsyde

This is my favourite blog since 'Ancestors of Cradle'!! Fun reading!!!

How aboutGrom (The Archmage of Menzoberanzan) vs Elder Whisper

Ryu Hayabusa (from Ninja Gaiden 2) vs Yerin?

Goku (ignoring anything past the Main Buu Saga) vs Northstrider?

Is there anyone in the Cradle world (not the universe itself but the planet) that can take one Majin-Buu or Majin-Vegeta?

Evangeline Kitty McDowell (from UQ Holder) vs Luminous Queen Sha Maria?

Touta Konoe (UQ Holder) vs Yerin

Esdeath (Akame ga kill) vs Li Markuth

More to come later =(^-^)=

Will Wight

This thread has gotten so long! It's been awesome, but now I'm having trouble keeping track of it all!

1.) Grom vs. Elder Whisper

I'd like to give it to Whisper because of the flexibility of madra vs. Vancian magic, which relies on prepared and memorized spells and material components. That said, I'd think it would depend on where they fought. Elder Whisper relies on light aura, and Menzoberranzan is in the Underdark. There is some bioluminescence for decoration, but the dark elves primarily rely on infravision to see. No light aura, and Elder Whisper's powers are more limited. Plus, Grom can attack directly, which Elder Whisper essentially can't. Grom gets it.

2.) Ninja Gaiden 2 Ryu Hayabusa vs. Yerin

I have to say I didn't play 2; I played 1, and I played Dead or Alive, but not 2. So if the specifics of what I say are wrong, forgive me.

I'd think Yerin would get it because she's from a magic system with more magic. Everything she does is infused with madra--she's strengthened by madra, throwing blades of madra, using the power of an opponent's blades against them.

Ryu has powers of his own, as well as a great deal of training, but for the most part he's swinging regular steel weapons. Yerin beats him.

3.) SS3 Goku vs. Northstrider

This is roughly the level of power I'm looking at for Northstrider. When he powers up, the world shakes for miles around. That sort of thing.

(Not blowing up planets, but they could do that in the Saiyan Saga, so I'm just kind of pretending DBZ characters can't do that.)

I'd think Goku would win, because Northstrider can't teleport or use ki blasts (unless between now and my introduction of the character I decide to give him that ability). In a straight punch-out, they'd be comparable.

4.) Majin Buu or Majin Vegeta

Yes.

5.) Evangeline vs. Sha Miara

UQ Holder Evangeline rather than Negima Evangeline, huh? Not that in her particular case it matters much, that's just interesting.

Evangeline has to win because she's immortal and Sha Miara isn't. In terms of magical firepower, I'd give it to Sha Miara, but I don't know that Evangeline has ever gone 100% all-out. Still a similar level.

6.) Touta Konoe vs. Yerin

Same thing: Touta wins because he can't be killed. So he basically can't lose a death match.

I'm also not fully clear on what his powers are, but the White Light of Mars can presumably disperse Yerin's Striker and Ruler techniques (though not her Enforcer techniques, which I'd guess would work more similar to chi in the Negima universe). Even if you say that dying once disqualifies him, Touta probably wins.

7.) Esdeath vs. Li Markuth

Esdeath can freeze *time itself,* which is pretty OP, but I think Li Markuth still wins. He's superhuman and has access to a broader variety of techniques.

Andrew

Okay, I'm a bit confused on how Cradle has that many people living on it. I know Will said that the planet is bigger and that vital aura helps to keep people alive, but I'm still not sure how it has such a huge population if there are so many dangerous conditions(monsters, remnants, kill-happy people, poisonous plants, etc.) and how there doesn't seem to be much large-scale agriculture(at least from what we've read). Is there agriculture that we haven't seen? Are they completely immune to disease? Is the planet just ridiculously huge(many times bigger than earth) to the point where that stuff could happen and still support a population of billions?

Will Wight

It has many times more surface area than Earth.

Also, as B pointed out, we haven't seen any REALLY civilized places yet. We'll see a city in Blackflame, but even that will be a relatively small, isolated city.

Thanks to vital aura and the power of madra, there are lots of inhabited places in Cradle that would be uninhabitable on Earth. For instance, there are cities on the bottom of the ocean. And on the surface of the ocean. And on the clouds.

Daniel

The inside of a volcano? The top of a rainbow? The back of a turtle? In a glacier? On a glacier? Under a desert? Suspended on a moon beam? Floating on sunlight? Deep under ground?

Will Wight

No moonbeams. And I would describe the city floating on sunlight as walking on sunshine, woah-oh-oh.

Anon

On the topic of the planet Cradle and vital aura. Is the planet called Cradle because it's great for cultivation? OR is there another reason like some awesome being in the center who is not yet hatched / or is being suppressed? Such an incredible entity might be the source of the vital aura that makes Cradle such an great place to cultivate. 

Also, will Lindons double cores allow to for things like ascending to gold with black dragon madra and then raising the second cool to iron thus adapting Lindons blood forged body in a way the original human dragon path cultivators could not? 

Also, is the Black dragon path madra another way to consume and process the madra other paths? 

Will Wight

1.) It's called Cradle because it's great for cultivation, but there are often double meanings in Abidan designations. The Elder Empire world is called Asylum, which means protection, but it is also has...other implications.

2.) No, that specific chain of events will not happen.

3.) No.

mozz-pout

Just realised. Daruman could have destroyed every single star in the universe of Cradle and no one on the planet should have seen it before months if not centuries.

This book about humans punching with the force of a Tsar Bomba is now ruined.

Will Wight

Fluffy McMelon

I don't think that's an actual explanation. Light exists everywhere along the path it takes. For example the moment before I see a star the starlight is, say, a foot in front of my eye. All that light in the night sky literally exists in the sky before you see it. That's why if you turn off the sun earthlings wouldn't notice for 8 minutes. The light pre-8 minutes is already in transit and moving. Deleting the universe outside in doesn't turn off the distant lights first because their light is just as close as all the other light you're about to see.

Will Wight

I realize we’re talking about magical physics here, so any explanation is as good as any other, but no joke I did consider this when writing the scene.

The idea is that anything removed from the Way is removed from causality. It’s not that the rest of the Iteration was destroyed as we usually think of destruction—i.e. reduced to its constituent components—but that it ceases to exist. It’s not real anymore.

So it’s not that those stars WERE giving out light that is now in transit to us, it’s that those stars were reduced from real to not real and therefore never gave off any light.

I’m aware that this is a nonsense concept and we’re talking made-up rules here, but that is the ruleset I’m working with!

Havoc

Do any iterations have civilizations that exist across multiple planets? Would something like the Star Wars galaxy be more strongly connected to the Way since there is so much sentient life?

Will Wight

And yes, absolutely! Sanctum is one such Iteration, where they have many populated planets and enjoy a strong connection to the Way.Barring external factors, worlds like that will live until the natural expiration of that universe, so billions of years.

Questioner

Goku vs Elders and Emperor. If Goku loses, then Beerus comes in

Will Wight

Based on what we've seen from Dragon Ball Super recently, even the creators of the show have no idea what power levels mean. We have Super Saiyan Trunks fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, which makes NO sense. Plus Goku gets pricked by a poison needle during his fight with alt-universe Freeza, which seems to violate canon in like three different ways.

This effectively means that recent events have suggested that Goku isn't really THAT strong.

Anyway, disregarding recent events that retcon Goku's strength and using our own reasonable standard of his power level...

1.) Goku vs. the Emperor and the Elders

Let's assume, first of all, that Goku doesn't just blow up the planet and cause everyone to lose.

...although, now that I'm thinking about it, that would be the worst thing he could do. Without the existence of Intent-wielding humans, the Elders would be free of their confines, and they would escape into their true forms. At which point they would unmake Goku at a conceptual level. The Emperor would still die, but his team would win the battle.

However, assuming Goku doesn't destroy the planet, he would tear apart the Emperor and about half the Great Elders. Any of them that work physically: Nakothi, Othaghor, Kthanikahr. He'd blow up their minions, fly in, and tear them to pieces.

But against the more metaphysical Great Elders--Urg'naut, Tharlos, Ach'magut--I suspect he'd have his mind devoured or his soul ripped out or something. As far as I can tell, he has no ability to resist powers like that.

And I can't imagine Kelarac wouldn't be able to outwit Goku.

2.) Beerus vs. Elder Empire

It depends on how Beerus' powers as the God of Destruction work in a universe that isn't his own.

If he can still unmake entities the way that he unmade Zamasu, then he would certainly win. The Great Elders actually can't be unmade this way, so they would re-form in the void and attack some other, random world, but that's not enough to invalidate Beerus' victory.

However, if he's relying on sheer strength and not his authority as the Destroyer, then he has the same result as Goku. He might be able to resist one or two of the metaphysical Elders, because presumably gods have some kind of spiritual/mental fortitude, but all of them working together could probably defeat him.

Whis, on the other hand, likely just wins. I can't see the Elders beating him physically or metaphysically.

Questioner

Woah. I thought you would say Goku would lose immediately.

How about Naruto. Him vs Emperor.

And vs physical Elders, not metaphysical.

Use Sage of Six Paths Naruto

Will Wight

I've seen nothing in the series to suggest that Naruto could ever compete on Goku's level, so I'd think Naruto loses to everybody.

Now, that's assuming he walks in and tries to fight Nakothi (or whoever) on his own. As part of a team, like for instance one of the Emperor's teams that actually went against the Great Elders, I think he'd be a huge asset. And a big threat to the Elders.

Naruto vs. the Emperor would be the closest fight. Naruto's powers are more physically threatening than the Emperor's, since he can use blasts of destruction and the Emperor can't. However, the Emperor's powers of Intent can also counter a lot of what Naruto's capable of doing--the Emperor would have superior elemental control to Naruto, for instance, and he could likely make Naruto's clothes shrivel up and start strangling him. He effectively controls the whole world around him.

So the incompatibility of powers makes this a little bit of an awkward matchup, but I'd PROBABLY give it slightly to Naruto. 51-49. The Emperor is smarter and older and wiser, but Naruto has many crazy powers in one body.

Will Wight

Iteration: Any universe that the Abidan recognize as capable of sustaining human existence and living out a complete life-cycle.

Every Iteration has a destined progression. A world is born, it lives out its existence, and then it quietly dies, breaking into fragments. These fragments float through the void, crashing and combining randomly until they form into a new universe.

They are called "Iterations" because the thousands of universes currently in existence are thought to be different versions of the same original world or worlds, spun out in different combinations again and again for eternity. Even the Abidan Judges do not know when this cycle began.

On its own, an Iteration should exist for billions of years, except for a certain underlying requirement: each Iteration is anchored to the Way by sentient consciousness. As long as humans* are around, the world is tethered to the natural law and order of the Way. The fewer humans there are, the looser that connection becomes.

When humanity dies, the world dissolves.

*(The Abidan definition of "human" is pretty loose, but never too far removed from the humanity we know. When a new Iteration forms that may be able to support life, the Abidan select a new population of human pioneers and send them to inhabit a suitable planet.)

Questioner

What do people do on cradle who don't pursue sacred arts?

Will Wight

To a degree, advancement in the sacred arts is an act of survival. Almost every adult on the planet is at least Iron, because that's essentially the minimum it takes to interact with the world on a normal level. However, many of Cradle's people don't consider themselves "sacred artists" per se, because their life does not revolve around the pursuit of advancement. Aura and madra are still a part of their lives, but not personal power and achievement. Cradle certainly has farmers, but farmers who can pull the rainclouds closer with Ruler techniques. They have chefs who can determine your tastes by reading your feelings, doctors who can diagnose you from across the room by sensing your blood, and carpenters who shape wood with their spirits.

James A

Hi Will,I've got to ask. In this sort of multiverse of worlds with different magics, were you influenced by Sanderson at all.

Will Wight

I'm glad you asked that!

I knew everyone would assume I was just doing my own version of what Sanderson's doing, and I'm okay with that. People are going to think that regardless of what I say, and even if I *was* spinning off of his idea, I wouldn't be ashamed of that. It's a good idea.

But honestly, was I influenced by Sanderson's Cosmere? No, not even a little.

I idolize Brandon Sanderson, and I'm not above shamelessly cribbing from better authors.

However, in this case, I had a draft of the Abidan and their structure before Elantris came out. When he first announced his Cosmere, I was initially ecstatic: "Whoa! This is exactly what I wanted to do, and here's a big-time fantasy author doing it!"

...but I was a little let down. His worlds are different planets that are (mostly) in the same solar system, they're not different planes. And it's all predicated on a single omnipotent being shattering into pieces, which...if he's omnipotent, how does THAT happen?

While I'm a huge fan of all the Cosmere books, I'm not really that enamored of the Cosmere itself.

Plus, once I started reading Chinese xianxia novels (on which Cradle is based), I saw that they're practically all set in a vast multiverse. That was the final piece of the puzzle I needed to push me over the edge.

I owe a lot more credit to Zelazny's Amber, Magic: the Gathering, xianxia novels, widespread anime tropes, and the TMNT show I grew up on as a kid.

Daniel

How advanced is their scientific understanding on cradle? Cause I mean I know they have lots of knowledge of their magic and their alchemy equivalent but do they understand stuff like, there is a top of the atmosphere, cradle revolves around the sun, space is empty, other planets exist... stuff like that

Will Wight

It's not great in Sacred Valley, but there are places in Cradle where their scientific understanding is pretty advanced.

But their technology never advanced to the level you'd THINK it could, what with scripts and constructs.

Why? A few reasons, but here's the main one: thanks to the sacred arts, if you have the resources, you can learn to DO pretty much anything yourself. You don't have to develop the technology to fly in a world where you can learn to fly.

It's more complicated than that, but we'll explore it as we get into the more advanced areas of the world.

Questioner

How would the Abidan deal with a sci-fi Iteration with millions of worlds?

Will Wight

When Suriel personally intervened in Harrow, it was because the Abidan were not prepared for Harrow to be infected with corruption at all. She decided to save as many people as she could. Limit was the world that was scheduled for demolition, its population evacuated and quarantine implemented. But Ozriel didn't show up to destroy it. The corruption spread until the Abidan weren't prepared to contain it, and that's when it spread through the Way into Harrow. So: if they were prepared to save a sci-fi world with a galactic empire, they absolutely could. It would be easier and far more organized than what Suriel did in Harrow. That said, civilizations with trillions of inhabitants and multiple inhabited planets are tethered very tightly to the Way. They're very stable and difficult to corrupt naturally, so they tend to be safer.

Questioner

No, not the Simon from Travelers GateI'm talking about apprently the strongst animne character, stronger than Saitama and Goku.Its Simon the Digger from Gurren Lagoon.Here is a link explaining himhttp://aminoapps.com/page/anime/4368923/simon-the-strongest-character-in-anime

Will Wight

First of all, I'm a little insulted that you thought I needed a link to know who Simon from Gurren Lagann was.

Why do you think the son of Kalman is named Simon?

However, I do have an answer to this matchup.

1.) Simon the Digger vs. Suriel

Personally, I don't subscribe to the theory that Simon and his various Gurrens are actually growing big enough to hurl galaxies like Frisbees. Having that literally happen would break way more rules than the series accounts for, most notably gravity. An existence that enormous would measurably affect every object in every galaxy, destroying most if not all life.

There's evidence to suggest that Simon and the Anti-Spirals have actually ascended to another dimension superimposed over their own, and it just happens to look like a colorful version of the universe speckled with galaxies. So they're fighting in their own sealed-off space, so to speak, and they're visible in Earth's atmosphere because of a plot-convenient rift overlooking their battle.

In that case, Suriel banishes him beyond time and space.

However, if we go with the explanation that everything in Gurren Lagann is literally happening, we have to explain HOW. How are they battling on a universal scale and using galaxies as individual, solid objects instead of the vast collection of gravity-caught particles they effectively are?

There's only one answer: Spiral Energy. Which means that Spiral Energy is in effect the power to break the laws and rules of existence. The power of chaos. The power that defies the Way, which is the source of Suriel's authority.

In other words, dealing with entities like that one is literally Suriel's job.

Someone else would fight Simon and destroy him--Razael probably, Ozriel if the damage was too bad and they needed to burn everything to the ground. Then Suriel would come into the world and fix what could be fixed. That's her role.

The problem with Suriel fighting him directly is that everyone ELSE would die. The first thing she would do is re-establish the logic of the Way, which means gravity would have its usual effect again, and then the galactic combatants would instantly collapse into singularities and all inhabited planets would lose alignment and be destroyed.